Author Topic: AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?  (Read 19058 times)

israeli

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« on: July 19, 2004, 01:49:12 AM »
hi there! :)

i'm just wondering if it will be a great idea if the Philippine Army replace the Scorpion light tanks with 80-100 upgraded AMX-13 light tanks... there are so many countries where AMX-13s are surplus (e.g. India, Israel) and "are ready for sale to other countries". one such example of a country that bought surplus AMX-13s is Singapore, which bought 70+ ex-Israeli Army AMX-13 light tanks and had those tanks upgraded as they entered Singaporean Army service...

what do you guys think of that idea?


peace! ;)


p.s.: photos AMX-13 light tanks:



"I'm very determined. If I decide what something is worth doing, then I'll put my heart and soul to it. The whole ground can be against me, but if I know it is right, I'll do it. That's the business of a leader." - Lee Kuan Yew

taxi driver

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Re: AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2004, 01:54:33 AM »
Quote from: israeli
hi there! :)

i'm just wondering if it will be a great idea if the Philippine Army replace the Scorpion light tanks with 80-100 upgraded AMX-13 light tanks... there are so many countries where AMX-13s are surplus (e.g. India, Israel) and "are ready for sale to other countries". one such example of a country that bought surplus AMX-13s is Singapore, which bought 70+ ex-Israeli Army AMX-13 light tanks and had those tanks upgraded as they entered Singaporean Army service...

what do you guys think of that idea?


peace! ;)


p.s.: photos AMX-13 light tanks:





two thumbs up

aldon

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Re: AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 02:24:54 AM »
Quote from: taxi driver

two thumbs up


I'd give it a one and a half thumbs up only because its fugly as hell  :D .  But I'd sure want to see some of it in our hands...

Anonymous

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 04:41:06 AM »
Three thumbs up!

Now if we can only con Eddie Gil to give us some of his money...

Guest M.H Del Pilar

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AMX-13
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 04:55:23 AM »
:?  I am not sure about this but I Read a magazine Phillipine free press I think where it shows Phil army armor in manuever some AIFV, Scorpion and Looks like AMX-13 in appearance. I don't know maybe I am wrong about this

spiderweb6969

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Singapore AMX 13
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 07:31:52 AM »
Singapore AMX 13 - VCU and the 'Camels'

The "Camels" laid the foundations for the build-up of the Armoured formation...

On 20 Nov 1968, the first Armour-related unit , led by Maj Seah Peng Yong, was formed at Keat Hong Camp. The unit was then known as the "Vehicle Commando Unit" or VCU in short. The unit was initially made up of 36 officers who were posted there for preliminary training on signal, driving, basic mechanics and vehicle maintenance. Barely two months later, on 31 Dec 1968, the 36 young officers were sent to Israel to undergo intensive training in the AMX-13 tanks which the SAF planned to procure. Training was conducted on inhospitable desert terrain and in harsh climatic conditions, under the supervision of strict Israeli instructors. Live firing was also conducted using wrecks from the 1967 six-day war. On 30 April 1969, these officers pass out from their training.

Upon their return in May 1969, this group of officers, nicknamed the "Camels", was tasked to compile what they had learnt, and translated these knowledge into doctrines, training syllabi and training formats for the new arm of the SAF. To adapt their newly acquired knowledge for practical use, they conducted their own continuation training under local conditions. The small VCU of yesteryear eventually evolved to became the sophisticated Armoured Formation of today.


Delivery of the first AMX-13s

 
18 AMX-13s were unloaded from their delivery vessel at Jurong Wharf under the cover of darkness in July 1969.Their presence was to be kept secret until the National Day Parade on 9 August.


AMX 13 SM1 Light Tank

Right from the start the SAF did not think large Main Battle Tanks (MBT) had a major role in its Order of Battle (ORBAT). Main reason being lack of open terrain in the region and so MBT battle of the type that occurred in Europe, Middle East and Africa is unlikely. Also soft muddy soil conditions is wide spread in the region with most roads and bridges not constructed to support heavy vehicles. Coupled with the fact that other nations in the region did not operate MBTs as well lend support to SAF not using MBTs. Consequently the AMX-13 was selected and Singapore is the largest operator of this light tank in the world today.  These tanks comes mostly from India and Israel. There are about 350 such tanks in the SAF inventory.

AMX -13 originates from France in 1946. It had a number of new ideas at the time, one of which is called the oscillating turret. An oscillating turret consists of two parts, the lower part being mounted on the turrent ring and has two trunnions. The gun is fixed to the upper part of the turret, and elevates as a complete unit. This arrangement makes for a relatively heavier turret making gun elevation a lot more demanding as it involves moving the total mass of gun plus upper turret and autoloader. Consequently stabilisation of the gun becomes more difficult to be implemented and so the AMX-13_SM1 cannot fire on the move.

The gun is fed from an automatic loader with two revolving, 6-round magazine. This reduces the crew to 3; Commander, Driver and Gunner. The magazines can only be loaded from outside the tank! Empty cartridge cases are ejected through a hatch at the rear of the turret. Besides HE and HEAT rounds, APFSDS rounds are used too.

The main part of the upgrade programme, was the replacement of the power pack a with new water cooled, turbocharged Detroit Diesel 6V-53T engine, fully automotive transmission, electrical system and hydro-pneumatic suspension system. These improvements along with others made the AMX-13 SM1 more reliable with increased operational range, speed, acceleration and cross-country mobility. The turret has also been converted into an all electric drive turret cutting out all the hydraulics in the old system. A stabilised day and night sight from Avimo is included into the turret. This sight incorporates a laser range finder increasing the accuracy of the weapon. Provision has been made for additional armour to be added to the hull increasing combat survivability.
 
(Copyright to Singapore Mindef)
 
The first production vehicles were handed over to the SAF in June 1988 with the official designation of AMX-13 SM1. The AMX-13 SM1 tank is still the favourite vehicle among the tankees. Many drivers talked fondly of the smooth ride and power that the vehicle displays even when compared with the Bionix. This vehicle is very popular within the Armour formation and will be sadly missed when it is replaced.

Comparison of Light Tanks

Technical Specifications   SM 1   M8 AGS (Level II)    Scorpion
Country of origin      France                    USA                   UK

Main Gun Caliber(mm)   75 (34rds)   105 (30rds)   76(40)

Types of Ammo   HEAT,HE,APFSDS,CAN - HEAT,HE,APFSDS,CAN -
HESH,HE,CAN

Chassis length(m)   4.88   5.3   4.79

Width(m)   2.51   2.67   2.1

Height(m)   2.28   2.53   2.1

Combat weight(tons)   16.5   22.25   8.9

Engine Type   275 hp Diesel   550 hp Diesel   200 hp Petrol

Power to Weight Ratio(hp/ton)   ~20   ~25.7   ~22

Ground Pressure(kg/sqcm)   0.74   ~0.67   0.36

Max Speed (km/h)   >60   72   80

Cruising Range(km)   500   451   405

Co-Axial Weapon Type   7.62mm MG   7.62mm MG
   7.62mm MG

AMX-13 / SM1 Light Tank

The original AMX-13 was designed by the Atelier de Construction d'lssy-les-Moulineaux (AMX); the first prototype being completed in 1948. Initial production was at the Atelier de construction Roanne from 1952 until early 1960s. The tank remained in production with the Creusot-Loire plant at Chalons-sur-Saone until the late 1980s.

 

The hull is of all-welded steel construction having a maximum thickness of 40mm. The driver sits at the left front of the hull, with the engine located to his right. The turrent is located at the rear of the hull, with the commander on the left and gunner on the right. The turrent consist of two parts, the lower part being mounted on the turrent ring and has two trunnions. The gun is mounted fixed to the upper part, which elevates as a complete unit. The gun is fed from two revolving, 6-round magazine by an automatic loader and once the 12 rounds are expended, the crew must dismount the vehicle to reload the magazines. Empty cartridge cases are ejected through a hatch at the rear of the turrent.
The Singapore Army is currently operating the largest fleet of this light tank. The Singapore Technologies Automotive (STA), previously known as Singapore Automotive Engineering (SAE), has been responsible for the overhauling and refurbishment of these light tanks.
As part of the chassis refurbishment programme, the STA has given a complete automotive refit with new water cooled, turbocharged Detroit Diesel 6V-53T engine, new ZF5WG-180 fully automotive transmission, new electrical system and SAE Dunlostrut hydro-pneumatic suspension system. Other improvement include new instruments for the driver, a new radio harness and a new cooling system produced by UK company Gallay. These improvement not only make the AMX-13 SM1 more reliable but also give it’s operational range, speed, acceleration and cross-country mobility a quantum leap.
The first production vehicles were handed over to the SAF in June 1988 with the official designation of AMX-13 SM1. The SAF carries an inventory of about 350 such light tanks.
Offensive Capabilities
·   75 mm gun with 7.62 mm co-axial machine gun
·   one roof-mounted 7.62 mm machine gun
·   two smoke-dischargers on each side of the turrent
·   main gun uses HE and HEAT (capable of penetrating 170mm of armour)

braveheartz

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tanks
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 05:42:54 PM »
Ok yan ... sige bile tayo ... saan?

Guest-anvil

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2004, 05:58:47 PM »
I would rather that the PA Armor Brigade modernize their +/-30 scorpion to the Scorpion2000 standard with 90mm guns and get at least 30 Sheridans to compliment and for the PMC Armor Bn to have at least 10 Sheridans to compliment the 12 V300 90.

Anonymous

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2004, 06:12:27 PM »
Hey guys, ano ba ang height ng AMX13? It seems to me that it has a higher target profile than the Scorpion. Also, the AMX13 seems to have less slope to its armor than the Scorpion. Seems to me we had better stick with what we have.

israeli

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2004, 08:31:59 PM »
Quote from: Guest-anvil
I would rather that the PA Armor Brigade modernize their +/-30 scorpion to the Scorpion2000 standard with 90mm guns and get at least 30 Sheridans to compliment and for the PMC Armor Bn to have at least 10 Sheridans to compliment the 12 V300 90.


question: are there still Sheridans that the Philippine Army can purchase from the US? as far as i know, the remaining Sheridans (300+ of thems) were being used as "targets" in a US Army training camp in California...  :roll:

the M551 Sheridan will surely do a great job in PA service, especially in complementing the Scorpions. i'm also wondering if the PA can get upgraded M41 Bulldog light tanks which are similar to those upgraded Taiwanese examples (according to fas.org, "Taiwan's M41D life extension system upgrade includes a new, locally produced 76mm main gun, new diesel engine, thermal targeting system, digital ballistics computer and laser rangefinder, and reactive armor. However, the tank lacks stabilized sights and cannot fire on the move, and is relegated to scouting and counter-amphibious operations.")... what do you guys think?


M551 Sheridan light tank (Combat Weight: 17 tons; 300+ Sheridans were being used as "enemy targets" at the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, California):



M41 Bulldog light tank (Combat weight: 23.5 tons; user countries include Brazil (300 tanks), Chile (60), Denmark, Dominican Republic (12), Guatemala (10), Somalia (10), Taiwan (600), Thailand (200) and Tunisia):

"I'm very determined. If I decide what something is worth doing, then I'll put my heart and soul to it. The whole ground can be against me, but if I know it is right, I'll do it. That's the business of a leader." - Lee Kuan Yew

troung

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2004, 09:57:19 PM »
The M-551 was not a very good tank. It was very complex and of course there were huge issues with the gun. The gun had a massive recoil which shook up the tank and messed with the FCS as well as shacking up the crew. Also the propellant would often times not burn up leaving some still in the barrel with bad results.  

The M-41 and AMX-13-75/90 are good light tanks and far more reliable then the M-551.

Then again an IFV like the BMP-1/2 could be more suited for the PA…. cheap and reliable…

israeli

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2004, 10:16:09 PM »
Quote from: troung
The M-551 was not a very good tank. It was very complex and of course there were huge issues with the gun. The gun had a massive recoil which shook up the tank and messed with the FCS as well as shacking up the crew. Also the propellant would often times not burn up leaving some still in the barrel with bad results.  

The M-41 and AMX-13-75/90 are good light tanks and far more reliable then the M-551.

Then again an IFV like the BMP-1/2 could be more suited for the PA…. cheap and reliable…


i guess you're right on your opinion about the relative reliability and affordability of IFVs such as the BMP-1/2. that's the same reason why i really wanted to see BMP-3s enter service both in the Philippine Army and the Philippine Marine Corps. the BMP-3 can serve the PA both as a fire support vehicle and armored personnel carrier. for the PMC, the BMP-3, being an amphibious vehicle, can be an alternative to the AAVP-7s.

BMP-3 IFV:



troung, from which countries may have surplus supplies of the following vehicles which the PA may purchase:

* surplus M41 Walker Bulldog light tanks?
* surplus AMX-13 light tanks?
* surplus Scorpion light tanks?

should the Philippines purchase such old but "upgradable" light tanks or the Philippines will be better off starting with newer types such as ASCOD LT 105, Stingray II and CV90120?

so far, the choices that the Philippine Army can have as far as light tanks are concerned may include the following:

* acquire surplus Scorpion light tanks and have them upgraded prior to entry in the Philippine Army (upgrading will also include the 40 Scorpions already in service with the PA):



* purchase surplus AMX-13 light tanks and have them upgraded similar to the Singaporean AMX-13SM1s:



* purchase surplus M41 Bulldog light tanks and have them upgraded to something that is similar to the Taiwanese M41D upgrades:

"I'm very determined. If I decide what something is worth doing, then I'll put my heart and soul to it. The whole ground can be against me, but if I know it is right, I'll do it. That's the business of a leader." - Lee Kuan Yew

viking

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2004, 07:40:50 AM »
The Swedish IKV91 could be an alternative.  In Sweden they are classed as Infantry support  tanks. light and amphibious so they can follow the infantry and give support with HE and HEAT

crew:     4
Armament:    1 x 90 mm gun,
   1 x 7.62 mm coaxial MG,
   1 x 7.62 mm AA MG,
   2 x 6 smoke grenade dischargers,
   2 x Lyran launchers.
Ammunition:    59 x 90 mm,
   4,250 x 7.62 mm
Length Gun Forwards:    8.84 m
Length Hull:    6.41 m
Width:    3 m
Height:    2.32 m (Top of commander’s cupola)
Power To Weight Ratio:    20.2 hp / tonne
Ground Clearance:    0.37 m
Weight (Combat):    16,300 kg
Engine:    Volvo-Penta TD 120 A,
   4-stroke 6-cylinder turbocharged
   diesel developing 330 hp at 2,200 rpm
Maximum Road Speed:    65 km / hr
Maximum Water Speed:    6.5 km / hr
Maximum Road Range:    500 km
Fuel Capacity:    400 lit
Fording:    Amphibious
Vertical Obstacle    0.8 m
Trench:    2.8 m
Gradient    60 %
Side Slope:    30 %
Armour:    Classified however protects
   against 20 mm over frontal arc
Armour Type:    Steel
NBC System:    Yes
Night Vision:    None






Anonymous

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2004, 08:58:18 AM »
ummmmmmmmmmm! ukay-ukay ok din iyan konting tahi sa butas babad ng tide walllllaaaaaaaahhhh ok na kaysa sa pangarap nalang

Mercenary

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AMX-13 light tanks for the Philippine Army?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2004, 09:18:16 AM »
Another Light Tank that was not mentioned here is also available as surplus right now is Austria's SK-105 LT armed with a 105mm rifled gun and equipped with an auto-loader and magazine capacity of 42-shells.  The frontal hull armor is 40mm = 1.5-inches thick which would easily stop 12.mm AP and possibly 14.5mm API rounds.  

Perhaps the best thing about the SK-105 LT is their total combat weight is only 19-tons so it's still 'transportable' by a C-130.  They have sold in large numbers to several different countries in South America, Europe and Botswana.  

The AMX-13 is operated still by Singapore is it not?  And another 'gun caliber' option for it is the 90mm.  

The M-41 LT is obsolete and in it's original (non-upgraded) form it was a GAS HOG with a pathetic range of about 160-miles.  

For new LT's there is the Cadillac Gage (same original manufacturer of the V-300 APCs) STINGRAY Light Tank armed with a 105mm (32-shells) too, but less protection compared to the SK-105.  The Royal Thai Army bought 150-STINGRAY LT's and there is a new version called the Stingray II.  

The SK-105 was built as a Tank Destroyer, was also used in more traditional roles as well as for COIN warfare.  It's proven to be a sound design.  

BTW, I read an article recently about the massive emigration from the Philippines of 'skilled' workers to the United States and how it's greatly affected the stability of the Philippines.  At the end of the newspaper article it stated the Philippines is currently facing a $3.6 Billion (U.S.) budget deficit AND is $100-Billion (U.S.) in debt.  These two figures are one reason why the Philippines has no real money for Defence Procurements.
Do not attack crack troops.