How does the AFP use its tanks and fire support vehicles?

[Adroth]

How does the AFP employ FSVs and tanks?

Studying how these assets are used will contribute to understanding of the need, or lack thereof, for more capable MBTs.

Does anyone have information about how the PA employed, or continues to employ, its Scorpion reece tanks?




As per Cylon's report, quite a number of Scorpions (not sure about how many percent) have been placed in storage. Is this reflective of the usefulness of tanks in the Philippine setting?

How about the V-300s?

[Drone]

i think puro simba lng ginagamit ng AFP,observed from videos in the news puro simba lng lgi ang makikita mo sa actual combat! takot yata cla na magasgasan ung iba! last na nakakita ako ng scorpion tank na lumaban e sa palabas na "bagong buwan"

[40niner_com]

Aside from the Scorpion, we have the M113/Scorpion turret modification.  It is last observed in Jolo during the May 2004 elections doing deterrence duties.  Yung sa Buliok para fire suppression.  Maybe Barber6, Drkula and Mikelogic could expound further on the use of armor during the campaign.  Most of our tracked units are operated in Mindanao.  Logistical consideration.

For our Marines, the LAV-300/FSV is usually deployed in tandem with the APC version or with a V-150.  The 90mm rate of fire is not as fast as that of the .50-cal -- so a close-in fire support is needed.   Most of the footages and pictures showed them as convoy escorts and infantry support.  The dense forest of Jolo retricts vehicle movement, that is why light infantry is imployed (Marines, Marine-FR, PA-LRC, PA-SR) and with air support.

[Art Garcia]

This website is still being developed. I think our Army will greatly benefit from this.

"It will feature a vast range of Scorpion items including spares at prices far below those available from normal sources of supply."
   

http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/scorpion/scorpion1.html

[drkula]

Aside from the Scorpion, we have the M113/Scorpion turret modification.  It is last observed in Jolo during the May 2004 elections doing deterrence duties.  Yung sa Buliok para fire suppression.  Maybe Barber6, Drkula and Mikelogic could expound further on the use of armor during the campaign.  Most of our tracked units are operated in Mindanao.  Logistical consideration.

Normally, 1 Armor Company is providing Direct Support to each Infantry Brigade. Depending on the ground/enemy situation, sometimes a section of 2 or 4 vehicles is attached to its infantry battalions or sometime the whole armor company is deployed as a manuever unit, as we did during the Lanao campaign. Always, armor units are deployed with the infantry.

We did not have the chance to work with the Scorpions, only with the M113, Simba, V150 and AIFV where I had my very close call in the summer of 1999 for getting out of the commander's hatch to fire my rifle. Half an inch away from a head shot. Stupid move indeed.

On the first day of battle for Kauswagan in March of 2000, we lost an M113 for moving out from formation. RPG fires from behind burning all 7 people inside to ashes- people who, just few hours earlier, were listening to my briefing. (to this day I can still hear how they scream)

Wheeled vehicles are only good for convoy escorts. Tracked vehicles were a lot more advantageous in combat - rice field, corn field, slopes, creeks...practically everywhere.

Between Simba and V150, all of us prefer the latter. Between Wheeled and Tracked vehicles? depends on the mission.

[Cafgu]

On the first day of battle for Kauswagan in March of 2000, we lost an M113 for moving out from formation. RPG fires from behind burning all 7 people inside to ashes- people who, just few hours earlier, were listening to my briefing. (to this day I can still hear how they scream)

Sir D,...tsk, tsk, tsk.  This must have happened in a thickly forested-covered area or supply route. I can't believe that RPG firer was able to sneaked behind unnoticed?? Did you get that bastard!!

IMHO, in hindsight if the 7 troopers were outside on guard that disaster could have been avoided. Were they infantry (IB) operating with armour units? or were they Mechanized IB troopers. Hopefully, lessons learnt from it have been incorporated in PA's fighting doctrine.

[drkula]

IMHO, in hindsight if the 7 troopers were outside on guard that disaster could have been avoided. Were they infantry (IB) operating with armour units? or were they Mechanized IB troopers. Hopefully, lessons learnt from it have been incorporated in PA's fighting doctrine.

They were members of A/58IB trained  as Mechanized infantry attached to 23rd Light Armor Company. Never got the RPG. Too many lessons learned in that battle.

[Cafgu]

Sad, but...oh well, that's life in the Army...thanks for the info, sir D.

[moca]

They were members of A/58IB trained  as Mechanized infantry attached to 23rd Light Armor Company. Never got the RPG. Too many lessons learned in that battle.

Sorry to hear about the deceased troopers.

Is it possible for you to share some of these lessons here? Is it classified?

The AFP has the experience that we in Singapore completely lacks. One attack like this can cause an entire change of tactics and equipment. I have read many times that the M113's armour is way too thin.

What about other AFVs in the AFP, are they any better in terms of armour protection against the RPG?

Is the RPG often encountered among the rebels? Who supplies them?

Thanks...

[40niner_com]

On the first day of battle for Kauswagan in March of 2000, we lost an M113 for moving out from formation.

Sir Drkula,  I always thought that it was a Simba that was destroyed that day.  Was this in Upper Bagumbayan area -- on the way to capture Camp John Mack?  Where was the vehicle hit?  I supposed the dense coconut plantations concealed the RPG shooter's position.   So sad that it had to went out of formation, as covering dismounts could have alerted the presence of the RPG.  Was this the time when armored units then started to use self-made 'applique' armor using lumbers and sandbags? 

Please enlightened us more on armor involvement during that time...

[rock]

                       Sorry to hear about the losses but I found the reason of the furious fire.
           " Because the hull was made of M113 was made of ALUMINIUM,once hit by an RPG fires raged furiously
            and there was almost no escaping the vehicle."
                The M113 earned its unofficial name as Zippo and crews preffered riding on the roof of the vehicles,taking risk of exposing themselves to enemy fire rather than staying in the flammable confines
  of the M113 Bardehlas.
       This info came from israelih weapons website. I hope if the AFP is upgrading most of it's M113
   they will upgrade the armor protection too.
      AFP confirmed losses of an M113,V300 FSV-90 from RPG's in the 2000 Mindanao conflict. Most of the projectile for RPG's in the south are just locally made HE, in which added slat armor can somehow give extra protection to defeat them.
   That's the reason why some of the footages shows some APC,IFV with wood slat armor added on it's side
 just to prematurely explode the HE outside the armor of the vehicle.
    Of all the Philippine armored assets the AIFV offers the best armor protection from RPG's and HMG and and 23mm cannon fire from longer ranges.
    Anyway the AIFV's is an improved M113 that offers excellent armor protection for U.S allies develop as a low cost equivalent of the expensived, heavy Bradley IFV.
     So I hope the AFP learned a lesson from this losses,we need something that offers more armor protection for an APC,IFV and perhaps some MEDIUM TANK/MBT.
      But the best cost effective option is upgrading the M113 flleet with add on armor/slat armor cages,firepower upgrade hopefully a combination of 40mm AGL/M2HB and some 90mm gun FSV and mortar carrier,new powerpack and transmission.

  
    

[Shingen]

I wonder which version of M113 is the one in question.

Early versions have no spall liners and fire extinguishers in the crew compartment. And some M113 i have seen have spare and external fuel tanks to the rear of vehicle.

Anyway, any armoured vehicle is fucked if it is hit by an RPG from the rear. Sorry.

[rock]

  Possibly the A1/A2 model but about the common projectile for the RPG in the Southern Philippines are only locally made HE.
 Mostly RPG2 and some RPG7 from Libya way back then.
    Steel armor add on and slat armor can help protect the M113's against this threat but the rebels are learning too coz they hit the M113's and FSV mostly on the rear.
   The V-300 FSV-90 is hit at the rear and the projectile penetrated the armor easily and the fire also cause an explosion of 90mm round stored in the rear.
   Better armor protection is needed something like upgraded M113's with add on armor/steel,composite,ceramic
 and a future SIMBA APC replacement the BMR-600 armor protection should be well suited plus a slat armor.
     Positive response from the troops for the 90mm gun of the V-300,CIS 40mm AGL and MK19 AGL,MSSR  and M95 light 50 sniper rifle,90mm RCL,106 RCL,81mm mortar105,155artillery and the PAF MD520,OV-10 for helping soften the MILF defenses.
   But for future APC amphibious capability should be a must that's what the capability SIMBA don't have.
   

[Adroth]

Normally, 1 Armor Company is providing Direct Support to each Infantry Brigade. Depending on the ground/enemy situation, sometimes a section of 2 or 4 vehicles is attached to its infantry battalions or sometime the whole armor company is deployed as a manuever unit, as we did during the Lanao campaign. Always, armor units are deployed with the infantry.

Thanks drkula. 

Can you tell us typically how many sections make up an armor company in the PA?

Do the infantry move in advance of the tanks, so as to be able to take care of RPGs (the way the Israelis and Egypt's Soviet advisers learned they had to do things after the Yom Kippur War in '73), or do the infantry follow the tanks?

[40niner_com]

Positive response from the troops for the 90mm gun of the V-300,CIS 40mm AGL and MK19 AGL,MSSR  and M95 light 50 sniper rifle,90mm RCL,106 RCL,81mm mortar105,155artillery and the PAF MD520,OV-10 for helping soften the MILF defenses

Another related question would be :
* How are the 25mm bushmaster being mounted on the AIFV and some Simbas employed?  How effective/useful are they, being similarly mounted on the US Bradley and LAV-25s, in our environment or operational doctrine?